President Wahid: “There Are Those Who Are Not Willing”

By: K.H Abdurrahman Wahid

President Abdurrahman Wahid looks fresher than he did a while ago. Wearing a cream short-sleeved silk batik shirt his face is bright these days. He is also thinner “Dieting again, the doctor ordered me to keep eating corn,” said the Muslim cleric from Ciganjur who has just celebrated his 60th birthday.

However, two very tiring weeks during the annual session of the People’s Consultative Assembly or MPR are only just over. Now he is also locked up in sorting out his cabinet Last Sunday evening, after discussing the new cabinet with Vice-President Megawati Sukamoputni, he received TEMPO in his office at the presidential palace in Jakarta, the one formerly used by founding president Soekarno. “For anyone who is at all spiritual, the office can only be somewhere around here, Wahid said.

In an exclusive interview full of banter in the Gus Dur style, Wahid gave details of the inner workings of his cabinet to Fikri Jufri. Bambang Harymurti, Karaniya Dharmasaputra and photographer Ruly Kesuma. Here are the main excerpts.

Can we know your secret, how you overcame the onslaught at the annual MPR session a few days ago?

Well I don’t feel there was such great pressure. If not how could I sit for hours and hours in front of the MPR?

Maybe there were special steps?

I don’t know People here say I follow the steps of a drunk God, ha ha ha!

There are many who earlier were very critical, but after you call they immediately turn around and follow you.

Hey, I did not ever call people. They came to me of their own accord.

What is the difference in concept between this new cabinet and its predecessor?

The one being set up now really is based on functions. In the previous cabinet there was a lot of overlap. What is not needed is now being discarded. Just now (when meeting with Megawati Ed) there was a bit of argument because there were names (structure – Ed) that had not been included by Bambang Yudhoyono’s team For example, at first there was a suggestion of a post of manpower and population minister. In other words this would deal with mobility of the population. Well, then there was a commotion with Khofifah’s office which also supervises the national family planning agency In the end a post of Manpower and Population Mobility Minister was agreed. Yes, it’s one nation.

Is it true that not every party will be included like before? Are PPP and PAN not going to be in it?

Oh no There will also be ministers from PPP and PAN. There’s nothing like that

So, it is not just a coalition of PKB, PDI-P, and Golkar?

I don’t know about the DPR (parliarnent -Ed), but in the executive every side will be involved. The TNI is part of it, the parties are also part of it. Nur Mahmudi, for example, is from the Justice Party.

And is he still there on recommendation from his party?

No. That’s my prerogative. It is me who takes the decisions, but bearing in mind the views of the parties. But although the chairmen of the parties say they will leave everything to me in full, we all know, don’t we, that some of them in their hearts are not willing to do so. It is not from them as individuals, but from their interests. Ever since our republic was founded there has been fear of excessive presidential authority. So, now authority must be collective.

So will there be no opposition parties?

Oh, there can be an opposition. Like just before, because, they all got their ministers, didn’t they? Just think about it, PAN had three ministers but was still an opposition. Let them go ahead.

With so many applications, can the cabinet still be trimmed?

Indeed a lot of people applied. But the trimming still took place. Ten departments have been abolished. Automatically the quotas of the parties have been reduced.

Has the balance of regions and ethnic groups also been considered?

Yes, but of course not every area and ethnic group. What we looked at first was their expertise. There are two types of this expertise. First, expertise according to their field. But there is also, for example, expertise in liaising between the government and the military. That is special.

So will it be announced on August 25?

Yes. But it may be on the evening of August 24. Sorting out the personnel will take place the day after tomorrow (This Tuesday).

Have the personnel been agreed?

No, no. Hey, I haven’t even thought about who will be in the cabinet.

Are Rizal Ramli and Dorodjatun the strongest candidates for the post of coordinating minister for economy, finance and industry?

Oh, that is all speculation. So, I don’t want to either deny or confirm it. Just wait. As to whether their names have been put forward, that is true.

Support from the IMF and the United States has of course been taken into account in this issue.

No. Nor do I feel there has been any pressure from the IMF or ambassadors.

Will the coordinating ministers be involved in the choices of the cabinet members?

No. Later they will be chosen as equals

And if they cannot work together as happened before?

Hey, who is the president here? Indeed there are those who are setting conditions, that if I become coordinating minister for economy, finance and industry, posts underneath him he must decide himself. As if he was the president.

What was the reason for you appointing the ‘Team of Three’ to restructure the cabinet?

A simple one. Bambang represents the military, Erna represents NGOs, while Ryaas is an element from the civil service. That’s it. There was no other consideration.

So, are they certain to be in the cabinet?

Oh, it is not sure. Don’t just imagine anything, it depends on what happens. If it is decided that they will not be, then they will not be in it. There are many complaints. There are many against Ryaas. There are not against Bambang Yudhoyono. Except the accusation that he was involved in the July 27 case Besides that there are not.

Isn’t that a serious accusation?

For me, you know, it is easy. It depends on the court. The main thing is if later he is found guilty by a court, yes, stop. This principle is valid for everyone. It is not so difficult.

So why has Bambang Yudhoyono not been suggested as a prime minister?

As if later he could become a competitor to the vice-president. Leave it as it is. I am making two coordinating ministers. There are those who suggest I follow Reagan’s example when he appointed three senior assistants. I don’t want to do that. Lately I laugh to myself, though. It turns out there are three anyway: a vice-president and two coordinating ministers.

How will you divide your tasks with Megawati?

She will receive reports from the coordinating ministers and various ministers about every development. Then she will report to me. After that decisions can be taken, God willing, between the four of us–I, Mega, and the coordinating ministers.

Can Mega also propose names, for example Laksamana Sukardi?

Yes, of course she can suggest names. Anyone can suggest. Just as an example, Alwi Shihab (foreign minister) suggested what if Fikri Jufri is appointed as an ambassador. I said, oh, of course he can, but there in Palau (a small island in the Pacific)……, ha ha ha.

Isn’t it necessary for the sake of political reconciliation?

That’s a fabrication. Why should reconciliation be tied to recruitment for the cabinet? That is my right as president

In your view, is Mega up to it?

Yes, if it is collective, she is. She is not alone It is just that Mega must also look after detailed matters.

Have the relations between the two of you improved?

Oh, really there is no problem, is there? It is the press who made out that they were not good. Maybe she was upset about the Laksamana issue, but beyond that there has never been any problem with me. All this while, she still has been heading cabinet meetings. It’s OK. I appreciate her very much.

What can you promise from this new cabinet?

First, clearly honesty. Then, fixing the failures that occurred before. Hopefully it will be more cohesive.

On the issue of honesty, will the members of the cabinet publish details of their personal wealth as you previously have suggested?

Well, we haven’t thought about that. What is important now is completing the reshuffle first.

Are you convinced that this new cabinet will be an improvement?

Whether it is better or not depends on whether it satisfies people or not. There will always be those who say this person or that person are not capable. What is important is that I see it as capable. I know why the person was appointed.

And can it revive the economy?

Well, that has already started to improve. It is not because the economy has not improved that we had a reshuffle. The question is whether we can be satisfied with what we have. Or, whether we want to achieve what we should have. This is the difference between a true problem and what ought to be. I prefer to stick to the second. We must set up a formation that makes it possible for us to reach what we must be able to achieve.

Could the cabinet repeatedly change every year?

Oh, if the economic situation has already improved, what are they going to say?

PKB has a target to win the legislative election of 2004. Is it possible?

It can, why not? PKB is trying to make itself an open party. Now two stages are under way. First the daily leadership indeed must all be Muslims, but from various elements. There are those from Muhammadiyah and so on. As a result, NU (Nahdlatul Ulama) and PKB must be separated. Second, then non-Muslims are going to go into its various departments. At its second congress later on, they will start to be part of its day to day leadership.

A party needs a lot of money and so there is potential for corruption. Why not have the government fund it?

I think there is a combination of factors. On the one hand the government will give subsidies. But that will not be enough. So it would also be good if there were a private organization which can make funds available for each party. Then have the president share it out fairly in line with the number of votes gained at the general election.

Would these organizations underneath the president seek funds for every party?

Yes. But, I am never going to influence the policy of each party. For example if there are businessmen who win a tender, then it might be asked how much you want as a contribution. Then we share, this one for humanitarian funds, that one for party funds.

So, PKB could get the fourth largest share?

PKB does not need very much money. What for? Hey, the PKB belongs to the people. Everyone knows that PKB got fewer votes in the last election because there were still money politics, emotional ties, and so on. If not, all would go to the PKB. Right now a lot is happening.

How will you handle the threat of disinte-gration, for example the Papua issue, which is becoming controversial again?

Demonstrations, yes, demonstrations. Let them go on. These are people’s reactions. It doesn’t matter. But if I am pressed to take action against them, yes it’s not possible, right.

What is your opinion about the seven words of the Jakarta Charter (1945 declaration calling for constitution to recognize obligation of Muslims to abide by Sharia law –Ed)?

There are two choices. One, we reject them. Or, we straighten out the understanding of the two groups that are in conflict. The nationalist group does not understand what this Jakarta Charter is. The supporters of the Jakarta Charter themselves also do not understand. At that time, Wahid Hasyim, Abikusno, Ki Bagus Hadikusumo, Agus Salim, had their own thoughts about this issue. But why is it appropriate? Because the Jakarta Charter was understood by them as a principle. The essence of the Islamic criminal law is prevention and punishment. So now let’s see if our criminal code contains these principles or not. If it does, it’s over. That means changing the understanding of the Jakarta Charter, so that it can be accepted by others. Towards groups that distrust the Jakarta Charter, it is our task to clarify it. To that end I have just been to Yogya for an exorcism.

What is the connection?

I want the strict Muslim culture and non-strict culture to be able to meet. To this end, Kunto Wibisono and Ichlasul Amal from Muhammadiyah were there. In fact, this idea came from Jasman Al-Kindi who is also from Muhammadiyah. This is serious indeed. It used a ceremony of bathing of all kinds. So, there is the problem. So, a body is going to be formed which, God willing, will be led by Sri Sultan Hamengku Buwono X (Sultan of Yogyakarta – Ed). I have already spoken to him.

Why him?

This is an old problem: it is to do with traditionalism and modernism in Islam. And it is the kraton (Sultan’s palace – Ed) that has the most experience in handling this problem. The evidence is that previously they helped the Mlangi and Wonokromo regions. Is it not in those two regions that NU is very strong? But on the other hand, Kiai Haji Ahmad Dahlan is a Muslim prayer leader from the kraton. Now the situation has changed because mass organizations have emerged which are crying for formalism. The experience of the past close to the kraton is something we must hear to overcome various problems of the current era.

Who is your favorite figure from the traditional Javanese puppet plays?

One of my favorites is Kumbakarna. His job is just to eat and sleep. NU is the Kumbakarna of the Indonesian world of politics. But at certain times, Kumbakarna wakes up, comes and fights against Hanoman. At the predestined time, he tells Rahwana, I die like this not because of you, but because I love the land of Alengka.

So will you go to Iraq even though the US secretary of state Madeleine Albright is an-gry about it?

Oh, just let her. She is angry because she has to be angry. In my view it is nothing more than that. Her reaction is the same as when I met Castro.